tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post7335391074490565539..comments2024-03-28T20:47:47.445-04:00Comments on Serene Musings: The Last Supper and the Passover LambScotthttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10535260741343975445noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-60801680241783735822010-11-16T11:19:45.703-05:002010-11-16T11:19:45.703-05:00Thanks for posting, Michael. I am familiar with t...Thanks for posting, Michael. I am familiar with this evangelical fairy tale.<br /><br />To begin with, only in Luke does Jesus take the cup twice, once before the bread and once after the bread. In Matthew and Mark, he takes it only once - after the bread.<br /><br />Furthermore, the "first cup" is never mentioned in any Last Supper text. Neither, of course, is the "fourth cup," which your story claims was replaced by Jesus. In Gethsemane, when Jesus asks for "this cup" to be removed from him, that is simply a common Aramaic euphemism, used much the same way that modern people might talk about a hard task as a "trial." He wasn't talking about the ritual fourth cup of the Passover.<br /><br />Additionally, as I showed in this essay, only John focuses on Jesus as the atoning passover lamb, and in John's gospel, the Last Supper was NOT a passover seder! Which means the "Four cups" theory is completely impossible in the context of that gospel.<br /><br />Finally, and most importantly, the Four cups passover ritual <i>did not exist during the time of Jesus.</i><br /><br />This ritual was established in the Jerusalem Talmud, written during the 4th and 5th centuries, C.E. It contains oral teachings from rabbis of the 2nd and 3rd centuries, C.E. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest this ritual existed in the early 1st century C.E. when Jesus was alive. <br /><br />If you believe that Jesus's death was an atoning sacrifice, that's a perfectly legitimate metaphysical thing to have faith in. But trying to back up that metaphysical faith proclamation with pseudo-scholarship is just dishonest and a bit insidious.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10535260741343975445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-56115293137172308842010-11-15T07:42:52.832-05:002010-11-15T07:42:52.832-05:00Dear Scott,
Do you understand the 4th Cup?
Afte...Dear Scott,<br /><br /><b>Do you understand the 4th Cup?</b> <br /><br />After the beginning of Jesus' Last Passover Supper (Seder) Judas Iscariot left to do what he had to do. The twelve left in the room were at the point where the second of four traditional cups was about to be drunk. <br /><br />(The first is at the beginning of the Seder meal.) Jesus took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them and said, <i>"Take this and divide it among you. For I tell you I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the Kingdom of God comes."</i><br /><br />More of the lamb meal was consumed. During that He took a loaf of unleavened bread, gave thanks, broke it and gave it to His disciples saying, <i>"This IS my body given for you; do this to recall me."</i> ("Recall" is a better translation of the Greek "anamnesis" than "remember".)<br /><br />After the supper He took the third cup saying, <i>"Drink from it, all of you. This IS my blood of the NEW and everlasting covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."</i> <br /><br />A hymn was sung, which is a combination of several psalms called The Great Hillel, and they went out to the Mount of Olives.<br /><br />What happened? The Passover ceremony and ritual was not complete. There was no fourth cup. There was no announcement that it was finished. Could it be that Jesus was so upset with what He knew was about to happen that He forgot? Doubtful! <br /><br />Not only Jesus, but also the 11 others had participated in the Passover Seder every year of their lives. No, this was done on purpose. The last supper of Jesus was not over.<br /><br />On the Mount of Olives, in the Garden of Gethsemane, the disciples slept while Jesus prayed, <i>"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will but yours be done." </i><br /><br />He prayed that three times. Then Jesus was arrested, illegally put on trial by the Sanhedrin, then by Pontius Pilate, sentenced and crucified.<br /><br />While on the cross He wept. Jesus, who was in excruciating agony, was so merciful that He prayed for the forgiveness of His executioners. He was offered some wine with a pain killer, myrrh, in it. He refused it. <br /><br /><i>"Later, knowing that all was now complete, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled and the kingdom established, Jesus said, '<b>I am thirsty.</b>'"</i> A man dipped a sponge into sour wine; he placed it on a <b>hyssop branch</b> and lifted it up to Jesus lips. <br /><br />He drank. (We recall that it was the <b>hyssop branch</b> which was used to paint lambs blood around the Hebrew's door for the Passover of the angel of death.)<br /><br />It was then that Jesus said, <b>"It is finished."</b> He then bowed His head and gave up the spirit to His Father. <br /><br />The <b>fourth cup now represented the lamb’s blood of the first Passover,</b> a saving signal to the angel of death. <br /><br /><i><b>The Lamb of God was now sacrificed. The last Passover supper of Jesus Christ was now complete with the fourth cup. It was finished.</b></i> <br /><br />The tie in with the Passover is unmistakable.<br /><br />The <b>Lamb of God</b> was sacrifice and death was about to be passed over come Easter day.<br /><br />The promise of <b>eternal life</b> for many was about to be fulfilled.<br /><br />Christ’s Passover was finished, but His mission was not until he rose from the dead.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07940745178193985942noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-58544236614535157332010-04-08T08:52:52.560-04:002010-04-08T08:52:52.560-04:00I couldn't agree with you more, Fred. John...I couldn't agree with you more, Fred. John's gospel is a favorite of mine, but I don't read it as though it is giving me a historically-accurate account of Jesus' life. It's is profoundly moving when understood for what it was meant to be - a spiritual treatise about a person who moved people in ways that they could not express without using imagery and metaphor.<br /><br />I also think you are exactly right about John's reasons for moving the cleansing of the Temple. Since John's theological purpose was to show Jesus as the new and final paschal lamb, and since John understood that to be God's purpose for Jesus from the beginning of time, the incident in the Temple presented a problem. <br /><br />The Synoptics tell us explicitly that the incident in the Temple led to Jesus' arrest and execution. This implied that Jesus was arrested because of his own actions - he was a rabble rouser. John wanted to show that this had nothing to do with Jesus' arrest. Instead, for John, Jesus was arrested and executed in order to fulfill God's will for Jesus as the paschal lamb - not because Jesus had caused a commotion in the Temple.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10535260741343975445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-20134602627201830832010-04-08T03:28:32.787-04:002010-04-08T03:28:32.787-04:00Thanks Scott,
I find Johns account of the last sup...Thanks Scott,<br />I find Johns account of the last supper interesting and illuminating on the early Johannine community in many ways. On one hand, it seems like John may not have been familiar with the Eucharistic tradition, or he is avoiding it for some reason. <br /><br />One thing I do think however is that John was familiar with the tradition from the synoptic that Jesus was executed on the day of Passover rather than the day of preparation but he has deliberately chosen to ignore this for his own theological purposes.<br /><br />John includes the cleansing of the temple pericope at the beginning of the ministry of Jesus but in his account, the event ends without any significant incident. I think that it is more likely that the commotion caused by Jesus around the temple precinct at Passover time was partly, if not primarily responsible for the arrest of Jesus and John must have been aware of this too. In order to include this pericope however, John has had to place Jesus in Jerusalem at an earlier Passover and avoid any repercussions. He can’t place it during the final days because the money changing is taking place in the temple precinct on the day of preparation at the same time as the execution of Jesus according to John. <br /><br />I think it is an example of how freely the evangelists may have manipulated history, or ignored it to suit their own theological needs ( or those of their community) . John wanted Jesus executed on the day of preparation because he was the paschal lamb. If it was well known that Jesus was brewing up a storm around the temple at a time that conflicted with John’s storey, too bad.<br /><br />In all, I think that John’s Gospel is quite a beautiful account with its high Christology and stirring passion narrative. The scene where Jesus appears to Mary Magdalene and Mary fails to recognize him until she turned toward Jesus (a lot of people think that this means to turn around to face the other way physically, but it should be translated to say “changed” is in change of heart rather than “turn” which is a bit ambiguous) is one of the most moving and beautiful images in the new testament. It represent the transformation that we all must undergo if we want to recognize Christ properly and for mine, this is the message in a nutshell. <br /><br />The point is, Johns Gospel speaks to me, but not in the language of history. Recording history is simply not the objective or even a concern of John. I know that many people are inclined to read it as such (in a strict way) but to do so is to miss the point.Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17130125607109135131noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-73895987049603157462010-03-31T08:06:51.040-04:002010-03-31T08:06:51.040-04:00Next Lent, I should know one you could go to, led ...Next Lent, I should know one you could go to, led by a rabbi.the Rev'd C. Allen Colwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03098190339515571961noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-44792540531641941492010-03-30T20:23:54.808-04:002010-03-30T20:23:54.808-04:00I'd actually love to attend one myself!I'd actually love to attend one myself!Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10535260741343975445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-27887588500150797452010-03-30T20:23:15.689-04:002010-03-30T20:23:15.689-04:00I think the idea of a church doing a true Passover...I think the idea of a church doing a true Passover seder is great, but I agree fully that it should be led by a rabbi.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10535260741343975445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-29179803.post-23133711181900894952010-03-30T17:19:34.271-04:002010-03-30T17:19:34.271-04:00Well, first of all, I missed your blogs, so glad t...Well, first of all, I missed your blogs, so glad to see you back! Second, you are dead on, and I don't think you came out and said it, but I like John's version in this case, because it connects John the Baptist's introduction of Jesus to his disciples, "Behold the Lamb of God" in chapter one, to Jesus' final role in the Gospel. <br /><br />Caveat alert: So how do you feel about churches doing Passover seders? I was approached by some in my congregation about doing one this year, and my stance was "Not without a rabbi to lead us." Found a rabbi, but too late, so maybe next year.the Rev'd C. Allen Colwellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03098190339515571961noreply@blogger.com